¦ You seem to have a keen interest in Mauritius and its history – what sparked it?

Well, my mother is Mauritian. It’s natural for someone who is descended from immigrants to want to know something about their heritage. My mother’s family have been here since 1735.

¦ Did the nature of Mauritian history increase your interest?

Yes, absolutely. The geographical location and role of Mauritius as a base for exploration are important. And, whilst I wanted to gain a sense of my identity, I also wanted to give Mauritians in Australia a sense of their role in Australian history.

¦ A major part of your work is devoted to that. Do you think that Mauritians have had such an important influence?

Even though their numbers have been small, about eighteen thousand now, when you look historically, you are looking at a very long association. The fi rst Mauritianborn individuals to set foot on Australian soil came in 1772. Mauritian immigrants were amongst the very fi rst cultivators of sugar in Australia. They brought a lot of technical expertise. Apart from growing, harvesting and irrigation, they knew how to refine sugar.

¦ You mean Australia benefitted from Mauritian technology?

Yes it’s a historical fact. When Australia began to produce her own sugar, the method of refining white sugar patented by Dr. Paul Icery was almost exclusively used in Australia until the 1890s.

¦ And it stopped being a main market for Mauritius. Quite ironic in fact.

Yes, 1919 saw the end of Mauritian sugar exports to Australia. Ironically, because of Mauritian sugar growers and sugar chemists.

¦ In what other ways did Mauritians contribute to Australia?

They have contributed in the domain of the arts, by reinforcing broader French cultural activity in Australia. For example, the office bearers of the Alliance Française, going back even to the 19th century, were Mauritians. They were also French language teachers and even traded to a degree on their French heritage. If you dream in French, it’s inevitable that you will seek out books in French and libraries that stock them. and be a part of that activity.

¦ Do you think we dream in French or in Creole?

Creole is the lingua franca, I don’t denythat. I don’t see Creole as some quaint colonial version of French. I see Mauritians as having a strong identity of their own. We see Sega dancing during events in Australia and while some Mauritians here might think some of these activities look a little kitsch, they are a way to affirm a sense of kinship. There are many Mauritians in Australia very passionate about Creole as their language and there’s been a Creole Council established in Sydney.

¦ There is a debate right now about introducing Creole as a medium of instruction in schools and as a language in its own right. What are your reflections on that?

Well, when I look at the work of educators like Paulo Friere and Ivan Illich, even if you look at the Catholic heritage of Saint- Jean Baptist De La Salle, you realize how important it is to teach people in their own vernacular. Obviously there are benefits in teaching in international languages and

English is important, but I think that at an early age Creole can play an important role in education. I think it deserves respect and its literary heritage deserves promotion.

Although I am an Australian and cannot dictate what should be done, I do not consider Creole to be a mere patois to be ridiculed or smiled at because of its charm and quaintness. It is the medium of communication in this country and it’s part of Mauritian history. It deserves respect.

¦ By respect, you mean being taught as a separate language?

I think it deserves to be taught.

¦ You were saying earlier that your mother’s family had lived on the island since 1735 or before.

Yes, they were here when Labourdonnais came. My great-great-great-grandfather, Pierre-Henry Lionnet, was in the battle of Grand Port as a medical officer. My mother came to Australia in 1950 at the age of eighteen. She was not part of the big wave of emigration around the time of Mauritian independence.

¦ Even after the panic of independence, thousands of Mauritians still want to go and live in Australia. Why is that according to you?

Well, we have taken 450,000 immigrants since 2006. Obviously due to the standard of living and I would hope the success of multicultural Australia. The relative lack of violence towards immigrants, the welcome they are given.

¦ It was a success story until the recent headlines about horrendous racist crimes.

Well of course there have been reports of some crimes against Indian students. But these deserve closer scrutiny. The Indian student who claimed to have been set on fire was later charged with attempted insurance fraud. According to the police he poured the petrol on the car and in so doing got burned. The police found no evidence that he had been set on fire by racists.

¦ Are you saying that we are overdramatising?

My feeling is that the Indian press in particular may have. Nevertheless, there’s no room for complacency. There may have been, in the case of some of these attacks, a racist element. However, I don’t see the entrenched racism they are talking about.

Generally, Australia is a very tolerant multicultural society. Progress has been made in terms of reconciliation even with the indigenous inhabitants of Australia and I think that it’s a wonderful thing.

¦ Still, the Aborigines remain a black spot in Australian history. Is their condition improving?

I think there is improvement but more must be done. I take heart that there is that good will. In years to come, many Australians will feel enormous pride about having an indigenous connection with the continent going back 50,000 years. In the same way that I am proud that my great great- great grandfather was in the battle of “Vieux Grand Port”.

¦ You must have heard that there was a huge polemic about the celebration of that battle. Some people say there’s nothing to celebrate because of the slavery many Mauritians were subjected to. You obviously do not share that view.

Slavery was such a terrible part of the culture and economy of this island. I’m a descendant of someone who was in that battle, which was a very bloody event. It obviously has meaning for me, as a direct descendant. I take pleasure in the fact that my ancestor was a medical officer who was trying to save people’s lives.

¦ But objectively?

Objectively, I think that Mauritius has benefitted from British rule. My ancestor was doing his duty, but he chose to stay here after the British captured the island. It was a significant event in Mauritian history.

There will always be people who will reflect on naval battles of the past. There are lessons to learn. Mauritius has remained free of invasion since. But when I see so much built heritage in Mauritius at risk and how much could be allocated to the preservation of buildings, conservation of excavated artifacts and even cultural heritage, it concerns me in terms of priorities.

¦ Another polemic is about which way to go to alleviate traffic congestion. What I find interesting in Australia is the free transport in Perth, at least in some areas. Do you think that could be part of the solution to our problem?

I think that could be a solution for other cities in Australia as well. It’s been shown to work in a number of places. It’s better that we fund public transport from general revenue and get cars off the road and if we could also use alternative energy, we could be making a contribution with regard to greenhouse gases. I think it was obviously a great mistake that Mauritius lost its rail system and any efforts to reinstate it should be encouraged.

¦ Light rail?

Well light rail may be how it’s done. Sydney made the big mistake of removing its tram system and now we have these big buses. We still have a rail system, but I think there are many people in Sydney who regret the removal of the tram system.

¦ Why was it removed?

Because it was seen as a source of congestion on some of Sydney’s narrow roads. I think Mauritius should be investigating either light rail or rail. But there are even more advanced technologies like maglev being used in China and Japan. One day this might be feasible in Mauritius.

¦ One of the concerns is the cost as some believe that there won’t be enough people to fill these transport systems.

Well, during this visit I’ve travelled on the buses from Port Louis to Tamarin, from Quatre Bornes to Tamarin and those buses are very, very crowded. You can’t tell me that people aren’t using public transport. When people talk about cost, very often they are not taking into consideration the true environmental cost, including greenhouse gases and the use of fossil fuel, the cost of pollution from the poorly maintained diesel engines and the cost to people’s health.

¦ You think building more freeways will not solve the problem?

It will solve part of the problem but it may encourage people to buy more cars. You’ll start having situations where people won’t have only one car in a family. A family can easily use a smaller number of vehicles if there are alternatives. There are many people in Paris who don’t own cars. They don’t need them, because there is an efficient public transport system. Mauritius is moving into the area of service economy. The Internet is going to enable people to work at home.

¦ Is working from home gaining ground in Australia?

Well there are more and more people who work at home. I have seen it increasingly. It is particularly important because in Australia, we work some of the longest hours in the world.

¦ Really? How many hours a day?

Well, it’s much more than the French.

¦ That’s not very difficult! Why do you work so much more?

I think it’s partly a legacy of conservative rule. Plus the diminishing role of trade unions.

¦ Is that a good or bad thing?

Well I don’t think it’s a good thing. But I also don’t approve of bullying employers. I would like to see a cooperative, sane, humane approach to employment.

¦ Have you seen many changes since your last visit to Mauritius?

I was here in 2003. Yes, there is a great deal more construction. But it concerns me that you have opened Mauritius to foreigners, allowing them to own land and create communities with razor wire.

¦ Are you talking about the South Africans?

(Laughs) Well, it would appear that the South Africans have brought this culture of exclusivity. Many of them have faced some very difficult and painful events in their lives, like rape, theft... They are fleeing problems in

South Africa. I don’t mean to diminish those problems but when a country gives foreigners the opportunity to build and live on its soil, it saddens me to see the razor wire. I feel very uneasy about it. I’m concerned also about the long term ecological consequences, for while it produces a short term economic stimulus, it’s going to mean a strain on water supply, on infrastructure and traffic systems which should concern all Mauritians.

¦ But isn’t opening up the way each country should go?

In Australia we also have this almost perverse reliance on immigration, and we are the driest continent on the planet. Sydney now needs to have a 2 billion dollar desalination plant to provide water, so there are limits to growth. There are other ways to grow. It’s a question of strategic investment.

¦ What are you recommending?

I’m not an economist, but I am saying that Mauritians should be careful about simply throwing the island open to people who want to build big houses and live cloistered lives, because eventually the coast is going to be completely concreted. This is a shortterm stimulation of the economy. There are better industries for the island.

¦ Like?

Well, I’m thinking of the Internet and I’m not talking just about call centres. Biotechnology, nanotechnology and renewable energy are areas that Mauritius could consider. It may require partnerships with European, Australian and American companies.

¦ When you say Mauritius has to be careful about opening up to foreigners, are you referring only to expatriates or to immigrant workers as well?

Mauritius has benefited from immigrants. All Mauritians are descendants of immigrants. It’s not a question of being against immigrants. It’s a question of weighing up the environmental and social costs. When you have these cultures of exclusivity, I don’t think it’s a good thing. If people really want to be part of Mauritian society, culture and economy, there can be benefits for Mauritius.

¦ Do you believe there is some ill-feeling amongst Mauritians against these “gated communities”?

This is a kind of cultural transference and I have also met many South Africans who don’t think in those terms, who emigrated to other countries and have something to offer and aren’t living in that fashion. It is not simply that they come from South Africa. Part of the problem is that they are not here all the time and they
 have a property that they need to protect.

When someone lives full time in a country, they are there to watch over their own property. They are there at night. They do not need a gated community especially in a stable and essentially non-violent society like Mauritius.

¦ Do you think there are more constructive ways to reduce crime?

I think we need to promote a culture of respect for heritage and property, both public and private. People who are convicted, for example, of illegally dumping on vacant land should be made to clean it up. People who steal from cemeteries or historic buildings could be given community service orders to help repair the damage. They would gain some respect for the problem if they were asked to alleviate it.

¦ So you must have noticed the state of the island. Is Mauritius more polluted now than when you last visited it?

Well I’ve noticed very large amounts of plastic bottles on vacant land. That’s been quite striking and I think it’s a growing problem and to see them floating in the harbour is sad. I think there are issues of sustainability there that should be addressed. South Australia has a very successful refund system – 5 cents per bottle - and when there is a value on the bottle, it will be collected and returned.

I didn’t exactly see the glass recycling plant in Phoenix operating, but I saw some of the wonderful products that are produced from recycled glass. That was really heartening.

¦ Anything you would like to see on your next visit to Mauritius?

I would like to see more urban planning. There is a need to look at the sustainability of the design of buildings. Solar hot water systems should be mandatory in all new houses in the same way as they are in Australia now.

Even a small country like Mauritius needs to play a part in dealing with the issue of global warming but there’s the added incentive that Mauritius has energy resources in terms of the sun, the wind and bagasse that could be used more efficiently. And they would reduce the problem of balance of payments.

I would also want to see packaging that can be recycled. In Europe, practically everything can be recycled. Obviously, they are economies of scale with larger populations and Mauritius would have difficulty dealing with that. But with legislation and enforcement of legislation and forward planning, there are ways to deal with the problem of waste. And green waste should be recycled.

I would like to see better enforcement of heritage legislation there needs to be some sort of dedicated unit in the police that looks at the theft of stone and metals – even canons.

There is a limited number of places where metal is recycled here.

¦ What about the restoration of heritage buildings?

The heritage buildings of this island are of economic value in the context of tourism.

Also, restoration projects can be used as ways of training young people in artisan skills.

They can be a form of economic stimulus as well. These are other reasons for maintaining old buildings, aside from them being part of the memory of the nation.

¦ Your concern for Mauritius seems genuine.

Well for me, in many respects, Mauritius is something of a soul country. It’s part of my personal heritage. I’m not a Nobel Prize winner like Le Clézio, but I can understand why Mauritius is important to him.

Touria PRAYAG