«Murvind was a son to me, not an employee. I frankly regret the turnout of events. He should pick himself up and get back to his job. We have battles to fight together. He himself said that I am his first mentor after his father. So as a mentor, I call on him to come back to his job.»

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Let’s start by confirming or dispelling the rumours doing the rounds: it is alleged that you have recently become very close to people who change sides often and who for the time being have become close to the government, like Samad Golamaully, whom you have apparently met in the corridors of the Line Barracks. True or false?

We need to separate perception and reality. That my proximity or friendship with Samad Golamaully makes me close to the people he is close to is completely false. People who know me know me for my principles, integrity and discipline. Samad Golamaully is a friend I got to know during the 2019 campaign while we were broadcasting the Sherry Singh gates when we were, with Ashley Hurhangee and Murvind Beetun, were accused of a so-called conspiracy. Samad Golamaully can change sides all he wants and he may be as close as he likes to the people in government but associating me through him with the people in power is far-fetched. I have my own vision of things which does not change with people but only when I see the issues affecting our country.

Are those issues – which you have been fighting to change since 2015 still the same?

They have in fact become worse. And my fight against them will not change. In 2014, I fought against the bicephalic power being proposed to us. I did not believe in that type of power in a country like ours and I fought that tooth and nail and against all odds. In 2019, all the gates were my products. If you take the Serenitygate, the amount of nepotism involved is outrageous. For a small group close to power to benefit, the law was changed to raise the amount disbursed from Rs50million to RsRs500 million! Had that happened in France, for example, every single one of those people would have been rotting in jail. It’s a clear case of trafic d’influence (influence peddling).

Who exactly are the people who benefited from these incredible amounts of money?

Those who are close to the prime minister: his wife, his brother-in-law…

That was before 2019. Isn’t the situation different today?

Yes, in the sense that it is worse. People’s power has been usurped and their wish hijacked. That is what I am fighting against.

How do you plan to change that?

There are three things for me which, if they are not in a political party’s manifesto, it is not worth voting for them. First, the independence of institutions. Today, more than ever, the independence of institutions is a must. A mix of people some from abroad and some from here need to head institutions like the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

Let me just open a little bracket to say that foreigners are no guarantee of independence. If you look at an institution like the Integrity Reporting Service Agency (IRSA), it is headed by two high flying expats brought from the UK at high cost. Is the situation there better?

Just have a look at the other appointees at that institution. It is teeming with retired civil servants who are close to the government. Do you remember the letter sent to the IRSA, detailing a series of allegations against Sherry Singh with facts and figures? Well, for as long as Singh was adviser at the Prime Minister’s Office and CEO of Mauritius Telecom, nothing was done.

Are you satisfied that that the Financial Intelligence Unit, which was also fast asleep, has woken up and frozen all his assets?

It’s not a question of freezing his assets. No one should be able to become rich that quickly just because they are close to power. He is an insult to all those youngsters making so much of sacrifice and still fight to get what they studied and worked for.

«Parliament has been destroyed by the ones sitting in it today. No respect, no substance, no dignity. And the speaker takes the cake. My country deserves better. But my fight comes at a price.»

He says the Mauritius Revenue Authority (MRA) gave him a clean chit…

Who is at the head of the MRA? The same chairman who was head of Mauritius Telecom. The same one who was secretary to cabinet. Today the MRA gave him a clean chit? Based on what? In that case, why is he fighting to prevent an evaluation of his house?

Maybe he doesn’t believe that there will be an independent evaluation considering how institutions have been hijacked.

You know, he will never be able to justify his wealth. But the problem is not his wealth. It is the way those evolving around power have managed to become filthy rich while the rest are sweating to eke out a living. Youngsters are leaving the country in large numbers. Our brains are leaving the country. Our skills are leaving the country. In 15-20 years, our population will decrease to one million, half of which will be elderly. The country is no longer a country of opportunities. Look at health, education, agriculture…All these sectors are in a disastrous situation.

Many Top FM listeners claim that your radio has turned into a chatwa radio. Is it true or just a perception?

The people saying that are few and uninformed, who associate Murvind’s departure with a demarcation from what Top FM is doing. I grew up in a Bisoondoyalist family. The Beesoondoyal brothers stood for integrity. My family does not owe a single rupee to anyone for what we have achieved. I am fighting the same ills I was fighting in 2014 and 2019 but with more vigour as they have become worse. We are in a state capture. Let’s take parliament for example. Have you listened to the speeches those around the prime minister are making? They are made up mostly of praises for the prime minister and criticism of every other government that the MSM was not part of. What will History remember them for? I have read speeches of Beesoondoyal and exchanges with other parliamentarians, like Sir Harold Walter Sir Abdool Razack Mohamed and Guy Ollivry. What a beauty. Many words send you back to the dictionary. That same parliament has been destroyed by the ones sitting in it today. No respect, no substance, no dignity. And the speaker takes the cake. My country deserves better. But my fight comes at a price: my wife and I have been through a lot since 2019. We didn’t sleep for days after the elections, our dogs barking at night, intimidation, oppression, messages, MRA investigations…And we are failing in the war on drugs.

Is the Special Striking Team helping or hindering that fight by targeting political opponents?

They say they are not targeting political opponents but the ones who have been falling in their net are largely people who have been critical of government. These things obviously send a bad signal to the population and give them sleepless nights. That is why it was important for me to have Ashik Jagai as one of our guests. There were questions which were of concern to the population and he had to answer those questions.

Which leads me to my next question: was that interview so important to you that you accepted that your guest drags along two lawyers as if he was heading for a court of law?

I agree that it doesn’t make sense to drag two lawyers into the programme.

Why did you accept then?

I will tell you: two things happened. I coincidentally met Jagai at the Line Barracks when I was walking down to an office there. I was with Samad Golamaully. Jagai’s office was open and Samad introduced me to him. After listening to him for a few minutes, I invited him onto Top FM. He surprisingly agreed and told me once he is ready, the police commissioner will need to give his approval, which he did after a few weeks. It was only natural that Murvind Beetun conducted that interview. He is someone I trusted and who has always worked on such sensitive files. Jagai never ever said he was going to be accompanied. The day before, I received the visit of Golamaully and Hurhangee who said they had been appointed by the police commissioner to be present with Jagai. I told them it was not proper and it was not possible. I called in Murvind Beetun and he was not agreeable to their presence either. I however sat and listened to the two lawyers explaining the necessity of their presence. They argued that the CP could not afford a contempt of court or an ongoing case being jeopardised. We discussed at length and decided not to go ahead with the show. Then Samad came back with a compromise: that only one of them sit in on the programme. That would be Ashley Hurhangee.

Still the same thing, isn’t it?

Well, it was some sort of compromise. So Murvind told me if it’s one of the two, then we had better pick Golamaully rather than Hurhangee. So when we left that evening, Samad was saying it was going to be Hurhangee and we were saying it should be Samad himself and that he would only intervene if there is a risk of contempt or of jeopardising the inquiry. Murvind and I were in agreement that it would not be right to have Hurhangee on the programme.

Why not?

Because of his temper and his way of handling things. In other words, he is unpredictable and may spoil the show. That’s the impression both Murvind and I had. When I was driving back, I told Murvind if it is not Samad Golamaully, we wouldn’t go ahead with the show. So I asked him to prepare a communiqué to announce that the show would be cancelled. My wife, who is also the director of broadcasting, was listening in on the conversation. When I finished, she told me, “Hey, what are you doing? The whole population is waiting for that programme.” She heard people talking about Jagai on Top FM in the hospital, in the bazar, everywhere. Then I sought Harish Chundunsing’s opinion and that a couple of other collaborators and we held on to the communiqué until the following day.

Why were you insisting on this programme so much?

First because it is of public interest that Jagai answers the questions the population is asking. And we were right because by the time we aired the programme, 317,000 viewers watched it on the three channels we have – YouTube, Facebook, Top TV and Facebook Top FM and probably as many listened to it on the radio. I think we were right in not cancelling the show.

But you didn’t have the figures when you decided to go ahead, did you? 

No, but while this was going on, something else happened that made us change our minds. Nawaz Noorbux from Radio Plus called Samad Golamaully, according to the latter, suggesting to him to organise a press conference instead of participating in the Top FM show. I thought to myself: When they got Sherry Singh, we didn’t say anything. When we released Serenitygate, Pravind Jugnauth chose Radio Plus to reply. So why should I cancel a show and play the game of the competitor? I had to make a judgment call and that was going ahead with the show.

Going ahead with the show is one thing. Allowing a group of violent people in is another, isn’t it?

Yes, when I welcomed Jagai at the door, I half-jokingly told him, “Oh you have come with a small army!”

How many were there?

There were two with him and a few outside. Then the two lawyers came, also accompanied by a few people. And I gave clear instructions to stop the show if the lawyers intervened unnecessarily.

They still intervened, Murvind stopped the show and you sent him back to the battleground. Then a group of thugs took him aside and assaulted him verbally and threatened to assault him physically in his place of work. How could you allow that to happen?

That’s not what happened.

How were they allowed access in the first place?

Anyone who comes to the building accompanied will be allowed in with their guests. That is my culture.

What about the safety of your employees?

The people who came were not hostile initially.

I mean if it’s a free for all, what prevents a group of thugs from entering your building and endangering the safety of your employees?

It’s not a free for all. In the last 20 years, we have had people come in and go out and we have never experienced any problem whatsoever. We have all the CCTV footage in the mess room, inside the lift, outside the lift, downstairs, everywhere. No one can fool anyone. The police have a copy of the footage and so do I. If I want to broadcast all of it, I can but I don’t want to add insult to injury. I already feel sorry that Murvind Beetun got manipulated into getting into these things but unfortunately it is what it is.

It’s not a question of manipulation. We saw the footage.

It is a question of cause and effect. People are concentrating on the effect and ignoring the cause. There is no need to dramatise things. When the show was over, Murvind, Jagai and myself sat down for a nice chat. The people who were in the mess room came with our guests. Out of courtesy, we could not throw them out. A few were allowed into the mess room to have some coffee and they all went down.

Then what happened?

By the time I left my office to go to the studio, a heated conversation with foul language was going on between Ashley Hurhangee, Samad Golamaully and Murvind, who was red with anger. I would come to know that Murvind called one of them batiara and the other chatwa. They accused him of being on Roshi Bhadain’s payroll…

Murvind said he didn’t call them chatwa. He said, “I am not a chatwa”. There is a nuance there, isn’t there?

Unfortunately, when you say you are not a chatwa, the person in front of you infers that he is a chatwa. When I heard the payroll, I shouted at Hurhangee to stop. I told him, “If Murvind is on Bhadain’s payroll, so am I”. I took Murvind out. By that time, some people downstairs heard that the show had stopped. That’s why they went up and started asking Murvind why he called the guests chatwa.  

They did more than that. In the CCTV footage we saw, Murvind was being roughed up.

Yes, later one or two of the SST members were reproaching him with asking sensitive questions he had no business asking.

It is important here that we get the chronology right. He hadn’t even asked the question which he ended up not asking, which they said was communal and they turned into a big deal.

I agree. What they were protesting about is the way Murvind was asking the questions. I entered the room, I stopped the row immediately and Murvind went back to the studio.

Did you ask him to go back or did he go back by himself?

I asked him to leave the mess room. He was also replying to them.

«Samad Golamaully can change sides all he wants and he may be as close as he likes to the people in government but associating me through him with the people in power is far-fetched.»

If someone attacked you in your place or work and is telling how to do your job, wouldn’t you give them a mouthful?

This is what I would have done. I am the master of the show. I have guests. The guests might get angry. I must remain calm. I need to put myself first in that frame of mind. I would leave and come back when they have calmed down. That’s what someone in command should have done. But that didn’t happen. What happened was a heated discussion that went below the belt until I went and stopped it. That is what provoked those people to behave the way they did.

You do concede however that Hurhangee was unpredictable and uncontrollable. How do you expect young Murvind to control him?

You can if you have the maturity to do so. When you are the master, you call the shots. No one else does. You need to show your authority. Stop the show when the two people cross the limit.

Isn’t that what he did?

Yes he did. That was the right thing. But what happened afterwards is not right.

When all is said and done, the most serious accusation levelled at you is that when it came to the crunch, you threw your journalist under the bus by absolving Ashik Jagai of all responsibility and even asking Murvind to apologise when he was in fact the victim.

He was not a victim; he showed the outside world that he was one.

How can we perceive him as anything else when we saw a group of thugs taking him aside and verbally assaulting and threatening him?

They did not take him aside. They followed him inside.

Do you find that OK?

No, it’s not OK. That’s why I went in and stopped everything. But we have to get the facts right. Murvind’s naivety and innocence were exploited and manipulated. When the show was over on Wednesday, until Saturday, everything was fine between Murvind and myself. What was shown to the outside world is something which sells. Attacking the police, attacking the SST methods etc. That sells. Murvind was not truthful by not saying what the real problem was and what he was genuinely worried about.

And what do you think he was genuinely worried about?

Two things: first, no one goes on air in a programme of such an importance with such a high profile personality without me having vetted all the blocks that would be discussed. There was only one question about religion. It was the damage done to the place of worship at Akil Bissessur’s place. This was important for me. We all saw that and we wanted Jagai to answer our questions about that. It was never agreed to ask Jagai about his religion or his place of worship.

That question came at the very end and it ended up not being asked anyway. We don’t know in what form it would have come out.

I was not agreeable to that. We avoid religious matters. And I think Murvind handled that well because as soon as Jagai said ‘stop’, he moved on. The problem was the two lawyers who picked on that and went on and on about it. Which goes to show that Jagai could have been present on the show without any problem and that the presence of the two lawyers was not only not warranted but it in fact complicated issues.

Had they not been present, you would still have your journalist…

You know, Murvind is still young. I found out his qualities when he was presenting the sports programme. For me, he is not an employee. He is a son. I am sad today.

He was extremely loyal to you and to Top FM and he risked his life for you, didn’t he?

Yes he did. I also risk my life every day and so do many others. And he has agreed that I have always given him unflinching support. I trusted and nurtured him. He however has some qualities like naivety which makes him go into things that perhaps a rational person would not go into. I concede that he has been loyal to me and to Top FM and I still believe he has his place here. The real problem Murvind has is not with the police; it is not with the SST. When the programme was over, we shook hands and there were no hard feelings. In fact, Murvind even seemed impressed with Jagai. So was I because someone cannot sit through such a show for nearly four hours without losing his cool. Jagai did.

Isn’t that easy when you have the better role? You are given a platform, you blow your own trumpet and when there is a difficult question, before it is asked, your bodyguards jump in and protest. I would be very calm too…

(Laughs) Yes but he was also trained for that. People with his background generally are.

Going back to Murvind. You told us what the problem was not but not what the problem was.

The problem for him was that he noticed that the people accompanying Jagai and the lawyers belonged to a particular community and Hurhangee was fuelling things by asking in a Facebook post Murvind and Top FM to apologise. I told Samad that neither Murvind nor Top FM will apologise for anything. It is not this episode that will put us against any community in this country. Since its start 21 years ago, Top FM has been the radio of all communities. We are the only station which give Iftar time on the radio. We do that for all communities. So do not try your luck. Murvind was terrorised by some threats. I assured him that we would protect him and we did. I personally spoke to the CP in front of Murvind and gave him his home address. The police commissioner sent at least 12 patrols to his place. But he said he could not take the least chance with his security.  

Now if everything ended well between Jagai, Murvind and yourself, what is exactly the problem?

The problem was that Murvind crossed a line by asking the question about religion. They are not interested in Jagai’s religion or place of worship. So the question was never on the agenda. It was not discussed with me. I would never have authorised him to go into personal things. Besides, the show was broadcast live and if something had happened, we would have been in trouble.

Let’s come to the apology now. Why did you ask him to apologise. What for?

I never asked him to apologise to anyone. When I said to him that he had crossed the red line, he spontaneously said, “sorry”. That’s all.

So what is the problem now?

I think the problem is one of ego somewhere.

Because he was called to order in front of outsiders?

Probably.

Shouldn’t that have been done in private?

It could have but I really wanted to put an end to a big polemic and be fair to everyone. That question was not on the agenda and asking it was wrong. I wanted that to be made clear to everyone and that everyone shake hands and go satisfied that everything that happened in that studio is forgotten about and there is no animosity left anywhere. That was the only way to diffuse the situation and move forward. Now if I have to take some blame for that, I am prepared to do so. La grandeur d’âme est d’accepter ses fautes. I accept mine.  

Have any lessons been learnt?

Yes we drew many lessons.

What have you learnt?

First, we were right in going ahead with the show. Secondly, we will tighten security, although there is resistance to that even within my team. Several have told me, “Do you think it is wise to ask guests who is accompanying them, how many etc.?” Now we will have to do that though it may not please many people. Having said that, our integrity will remain the same, our mission will remain the same and our resolve and determination to fight for the interest of the country will not change.

If Murvind is reading this, what would you like to tell him?

I would call on him to reflect on what happened and put order in his ideas, separate the causes from the effects without being influenced by anyone. He was a son to me, not an employee. I frankly regret the turnout of events. He should pick himself up and get back to his job. We have battles to fight together. He is dependable and trustworthy. He himself said that I am his first and best mentor in life after his father. So as a mentor, I call on him to come back to his job. Everyone makes mistakes. I make mistakes. The main thing is to turn the page over and look ahead. This is not the first time he has experienced such problems. When we were releasing the gates, people tried to poach him, they threatened him and were out to get him. But because the gates were coming one after the other, he forgot all about that and, like a soldier in a battlefield, you get wounded but you carry on firing.

He had more bullets. He said he was working on the infiltration of the mafia in our institutions when you stopped him from doing that…

No, I did not stop him. He knows my battle. He apparently said that the mafia has infiltrated even the media. You know, I have a family I care for. My wife sometimes tells me, “We have kids. Why do you put the family at risk? These people are surrounded by the mafia.” My biggest protection is my mission. If ever anything happened to me, the first one to be accused would be the prime minister, Pravind Jugnauth himself. If there is one person who is responsible for what is going on, it is him and his family. He criticised me in political rallies to try and protect his family. So I will do everything to help Murvind in the same mission and the same battle we have been fighting. There is one thing I am sure about: No one will control Top FM for as long as I am alive. My ancestors are freedom fighters. I have that in my blood. Lord Krishna says, “Even if someone in front of you is your father, brother or relative, if he is on the wrong side, you must fight him. That is your dharma and that is your karma.”

  

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